Friday, January 23, 2009

200

What better topic to discuss on my 200th blog than my favorite topic to discuss.



One of my favorite bloggers, Vivienne, recently posted a blog about religion. She saw some atheist propaganda in a subway that inspired her to write. It was the following question;

"Why can we not look at a beautiful garden without putting fairies at the bottom of it?"

I thought it was a great question because the answer to the question is found within the question itself. I will explain what I mean but first a little background.

I was raised in a relatively strict Catholic home. It wasn't until later years that Church became a small part of our lives. As a youth, I had many questions. I firmly believe it was the lack of answers that led me on the path that got me to where I am now.

We allowed Mormon's to enter our home in an attempt to preach their gospel. They quickly became frustrated with me. I couldn't help but express my dissatisfaction with their vague all encompassing answer of "faith." Jehovah's witness members also couldn't satisfy my need for a solid response. Catholicism and Christianity's typically unwavering closed door policy towards doubters only served to push me even farther away from religion.

So I went to college. I studied religion, philosophy, argumentation and debate as well as Astronomy and Physical Anthropology. That really fucked me up. The blinders that religion had placed upon me didn't allow me to properly prepare myself for the mind blowing I was about to receive from cold, hard facts. Ironically, it was in these same courses, taught mostly by proud and angry atheists, where I truly found myself.

At first I was a little scared to be completely honest. I felt inside that reading and discussing these topics was blasphemous. Pointing out "factual mistakes" in religious texts felt like I was doing what the Bible taught as evil. Then I started noticing connections in it all. The similarities in so many religions that couldn't always be attributed to historical connections. The intriguing connections between all sciences and religions. More importantly, the simple miracle that life exists at all in the universe.

The more I read about how life came to be and how life continues to exist, the more captivated I found myself with the unanswered mysteries. Keep in mind that by this time I had long since given up on any idea of an omnipotent, omniscient being. I still saw something in life that made me feel wonder.

After a decade or so of skepticism I again contemplated the possibility that there might be a small chance that there was some sort of design behind it all, and I felt great. I wasn't aware until then that I had felt so bad, bland and empty for so many years.

So why can't we not look at a beautiful garden without putting fairies at the bottom of it? Well, because we can't. There is something in our nature that needs wonder and fantasy. Some desire for protection and/or need for spiritual guidance. This is why I believe so many people that leave their faith and stop believing in some sort of God start looking quickly towards alternatives. Tarot, numerology and other equally fantastical studies. It becomes a faith of convenience.

"My religion tells me that smoking and drinking is bad so I will find a religion that doesn't." Or even worse, these people search for something trendy to follow. It's not cool at all to follow an old boring faith right? Hey, I don't blame or judge them too harshly for leaving. I stopped going to church for different reasons but the point is I stopped too so I can't say much about that.

Many atheists refuse to believe in any form of deity, obviously. That's all fine and dandy. Its a free planet and you are welcome to believe as you wish. I can't help but notice though that many of the atheists I know harbor some kind of animosity towards anyone and anything remotely religious. Why this hatred? Why so much anger? Why so much contempt?

They aren't ALL that way sure but a WHOLE LOT of them are. As logical and intelligent and skeptical as you may think you are, there is one thing that religion could stand to teach you still. That is to be a bit less judgmental and more accepting of people for what they are.

If there is one thing that pisses me off it is when religions fight amongst each other or when religious groups argue with non-religious individuals. It is that reason alone that chases me away from many of those groups. There is no "winning" that argument and the millions who have died bloody deaths fail to have proved their points to this planet full of ignorant savages.

Religions are meant to teach compassion, patience and understanding. Just because religion also teaches about omniscient beings doesn't mean you should disregard everything all religions have to teach. As an atheist, if you consider yourself skeptical and logical then you are familiar with the fallacy of composition right?

I try to make an effort to learn from any text that has a positive message to teach. Whether it is from a book written by a schizophrenic individual that believes he spoke to Jesus Christ himself or a person who completely misinterprets what the original authors of those religious texts intended. They could all teach you valuable lessons. It is important to take from life what most fulfills you.

I can't see myself giving into any sort of group communion wholeheartedly. I can attend the events whenever I need to but when groups start chanting, I can't help but imagine the pagan and tribal traditions that inspired them. I also can't help but giggle at the terrible old lady singers that just don't care.

My point? Some people need religion, some just need faith. Others, feel they don't need anything. I was there for a decade or more then I realized that faith in a specific church was a completely different thing than "faith" by definition. As long as what you believe or don't believe makes you a better person, then more power to you. I'll give you three R's that should be taught in school. Respect yourself, respect others and respect the Earth.

Some people like to feel that there is a plan and some order to the chaos of daily life. Some people choose to revel in that chaos. I can't pretend to know ANYTHING about the way the world works. I know what we humans understand about the history of creation and I know what a lot of us humans understand about the morality behind our purpose. I don't necessarily believe that they conflict with each other.

I sum it up in one sentence.

Bibles and other religious texts try to teach you the moral significance of why, while science tries to explain how.

Religions try hard to explain to us the purpose of our existence as well as justification and vindication for good behavior. The exact history and factual dates and numbers are insignificant to the greater purpose. The sciences try to teach you how all these seemingly miraculous events brought us to where we are now. The moral significance of it all is irrelevant.

I think it all makes more sense together than it does apart.

13 comments:

jewlover2 said...

I thoroughly enjoyed this post! I personally do find the answers to my questions in the bible and I am a Jehovah's Witness because they are the ones I feel are in agreement with it. But not everyone agrees with me and that's all fine as well. It's about being happy and satisfied with your beliefs if you're not, it's about searching for what you need. That's all anybody can do. I do agree that a person who believes blindly is doomed to be dissatisfied. Things must mesh...what you know of science, what you know of humanity, what you know of God. It must mesh.

Rebecca Rodgers said...

'Bibles and other religious texts try to teach you the moral significance of why, while science tries to explain how.'

That about sums it up.

ryan said...

i think you hit upon something... the idea that religious people need to ask the right questions.

i come from a christian background (whatever that means, since the definition of christian fluctuates wildly) and would ask friends and other christians "why do you believe in God? Why do you believe in Jesus? Why are there so many denominations, if this is supposed to be the ultimate truth? what is truth and what is simply man's thoughts? what is God's will? can we know God's will?" the majority of christians don't really know what or why they believe and have no real answer for these questions.

i have also met with mormons and JWs as well as a number of other people with various religious beliefs. i figure, it's my personal duty to give them a chance and see what they have to say myself. to check and see... do they have the truth?

as a christian, the bible is my standard for judging truth and lies. i can talk about why i believe the bible, but that would fill an entire post or more.

the important thing is that we use our brain and logic. why did the 12 disciples follow that weird jesus guy? not because it was cool. not because he gave them an emotional experience. and even doing miracles wasn't enough. if you're a bible reader and know about philip and nathanael (check John 1) then you know... philip came to nathanael and said, "we found him. the one Moses wrote about in the Law and about whom the prophets also wrote." they had evidence. and evidence does exist. (why i believe jesus was the promised messiah would also fill a post, as would my answers to the above mentioned questions)

but it is my belief that we are in a state similar to the jews of jesus' time. the ethiopian, in the book of Acts, asks an excellent question... "how can i understand, if no one explains it to me?" at the time of jesus there were so many "denominations"... essenes, sadducees, pharisees, scribes, zealots, etc... all claiming to have the true understanding. jesus came claiming to have the very words of God... claiming to have the one and only truth... what made him different?

ask any christian why they are a christian and most might say they want fire insurance. the idea of eternal, joyful life is one anybody would like. they might also say, "i'm waiting for Jesus' return." but do they really understand why they are waiting? and would they even recognize him?

once again, it's my belief that christians are like the jews of the past (who were/are still waiting for a promised messiah)...

we are doing the best we can... waiting for jesus to return, to explain all things.

in john 17:3, it says "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Do you now God? do you know Jesus?

do you love God? do you trust God?
do you understand what it means "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." do you understand what it means to love your neighbor as yourself? do you understand what you're asking for when you recite the Lord's prayer?

i wish i was a more eloquent writer. but i know you like to hear what other people are thinking so i decided to give it a shot.

may psalm 119:105 and psalm 119:130 hold true for you.

~codsu
~woodyn

Sarah Jane said...

It does make sense all put together rather than only taken bit by bit, like so many self-righteous Christians do when they feel like laying down judgements.
Ugh, I had something else to say and it flew outta my brain...

Angela said...

"Many atheists refuse to believe in any form of deity, obviously."

I thought all atheists don't believe in any form of deity? Otherwise they wouldn't be atheist - without theism.

Argentum Vulgaris said...

Well, that gives one food for thought. Some different ideas, loved it. Great post HL.

My point? Some people need religion, some just need faith. Others, feel they don't need anything.

That and the 3R's, great lines.

AV
http://netherregionoftheearthii.blogspot.com/
http://tomusarcanum.blogspot.com/
http://thingsthatfizz.blogspot.com/

Vivienne said...

Bravo, fantastic blog. Am at internet cafe sorting out paperwork for my sister in law (con la que vamos a vivir) and had to have a quick look at updates!

I agree, a lot of people NEED to believe in something, need to hold on to something, I guess in a way I can quite well understand that.
I do find though, when I ask too many questions (out of curiosity, you know how inquisitive I am!) the answers get fewer and fewer - am thinking because they don't have the answers either and my eternal questions sent them to doubt theirself?

lindas_1 said...

so let me get this straight u choose to be atheist? but then u acknowledge that there was a jesus christ by referring to him as actual being and the bible was written by many authors not by a sole schizophrenic individual as u referred to. u went to college to study all those courses and believing what they said because it was "cold,hard facts" and learning what u did gave u faith in wat u believe in . so u have faith in other things im sure so im confused as to y u couldnt understand why religions have faith in their god."I couldn't help but express my dissatisfaction with their vague all encompassing answer of "faith."
i give u props for giving people the chance to answer your questions bout their religion or god and why this or that is but am confused as to why a man of your "intelligence" and knowledge would u not ask for guidance from the one almighty god jehovah which is his personal name by the way...usually insecure people have trouble with understanding faith but maybe one time of praying wouldnt hurt u. maybe one time of asking HIM to show which way to go wouldnt hurt. also actually reading the bible wouldnt hurt. at times it is hard to understand but u also had to study wat u did in college to understand also otherwise u would have been clueless...HE is our teacher he alone is all anyone needs religion can come later but im sure even choosing to go with atheism doesnt completely satisfy your curiosity just look around you. everything living and not living only a perfect being could create everything in this universe and give us all the good qualities such as love and kindness and honesty can science explain why we love? can science explain why we grow old? no they cant.

HektikLyfe said...

>Everyone: Sorry I have been out of commission for a while. I have been, tending to other matters. :)

>Jewlover2: I am glad you have found what works for you. That is the key.

>Rebecca: Yep.

>Ryan: WOW! That is your longest response to me yet I believe! Thanks for taking the time for that! I really do appreciate the time and thought you put into your response. :) I don't have the King James Bible memorized so I looked up the passages you referred to. Translated I understand 130 to say, "Hearing the words is all it takes to make even the idiots understand." Which could also mean that if you don't say you understand and believe, you are stupider than an idiot. I can see how this can lead to blind faith.

Is there any other kind?

>Sarah: One thing I must say though is that from the self-righteous club, the non-believers are the most annoying. They tend to be cocky and smug. The religious are just happy.

>Angela: This is what I'm saying. By definition, atheists don't believe in a deity.

>Vulgaris: Thanks.

>Vivienne: I don't know about them doubting themselves as much as them pitying you. When you are a true believer like lindas_1 down below, all logic and sense leaves you and you can only feel sorry for the "damned." That would be anyone who doesn't agree with their often incorrect interpretation of their own religion.

>Lindas_1: Oh hello fake account. Where do I start? How about right from the beginning. You didn't read the blog did you? It looks like you just scanned over portions of it enough to get quotes.

You don't have it straight. I don't choose to be Atheist, but if I did, I have a full right to be which is the point of this whole blog which you obviously didn't get either.
I didn't refer to Jesus Christ as an actual being. What are important are His teachings to those who choose to follow them. Those followers who don't even follow the teachings of the name their religion is named after.
There are more religions in the world than your own, you do know that right? As religious texts get handed down from person to person, each making his or her own modifications (King James, Joseph Smith) the original message can get lost or at least changed a little bit.
I went to college and learned from it yes, but you didn't understand what I had to say from that. You got defensive right away and assumed that I took what they had to say as fact simply because I used the term "cold, hard facts." If you had read it carefully you would have noted that the entire message was not about the significance of facts but their relevance.
I am confused how people can believe in anything that has been disproved. If one day they prove to me that the Earth is indeed flat, that proof would be undeniable. I wouldn't blindly continue to believe what I was told was true only because it is what I learned first. Even when religions focus on historical events that have been proven to have never occurred, that doesn't mean that their bible doesn't have a good message. But I don't know how I could continue to follow and devote myself to that group knowing about the existence of huge errors.
Like Vivienne said, when they run out of answers and proclaim "Faith" as the answer...it seems like a cop out. "Well, you have a point and you may be right but we just choose to put our blinders on and ignore that little fact. So what if Mrs. Cain appeared out of nowhere."
I never said I was "intelligent" nor do I take offense that you used quotes around it. It just helps me understand the type of person you are, better.
So, you think that it makes sense somehow for me to ask for guidance, from YOUR God? The God who you think would use English letters to write and pronounce His name? The God who has teeth and a mouth to eat with?
"Insecure?" Don't make me laugh. I've never been more secure in my life. Your quick to respond and slow to grasp the concept of what I've written due to your emotional attachment to your own misunderstood faith spells insecurity. There were MANY other religions before yours. Your religion didn't exist before others did. How does this make you feel? Or do you just teach yourself to ignore it as you flagulate yourself?
One time of praying doesn't hurt. I did my share of praying and I often still do. I just don't chant. I don't repeat memorized and meaningless "magical" words that will somehow grant my wishes in this mortal life. I do what I believe is right. I will do what I feel inside is just and righteous. I have a personal relationship and (one way) conversation when I "pray." God doesn't talk back to me. I am not yet that completely insane. :) I don't go by script or scripture.
You want me to ask someone who will NEVER respond to me for directions on how to live my life? Wait, no. You want me to ask YOUR religious leaders' interpretation of the bible you read. I prefer to use the brain and the gift that has been given to us to make my own judgment.
Reading the bible doesn't hurt. Reading more than one hurts even less. In fact, you are severely hurting yourself by only reading one. They always teach you that everyone else is wrong, like you are showing in your comments here. This archaic and barbaric trait is what has led to countless deaths and suffering.
I studied more than one faith. Those who study only one are truly clueless.
"Only a perfect being can create everything in this universe?" Only a perfect being can create death and hatred and anger and jealousy? Or did Satan create that? If so, does that mean that he too has the power of creation?
Can science explain why we love? Its not supposed to. Science can only explain the chemical reactions that occur when we love.
Can science explain why we grow old? Yes, it does and has.

Can religion create peace and prosperity on Earth?
Can religion cure cancer?
Can religion even prove the existence of God?

It hasn't yet.

lindas_1 said...

wow ok so im considered fake im assuming jus cuz i dont have a bloggers account i guess u feel u are better than me now? and to answer your question to your may be disbelief yes i did actually read your blog twice actually although im still a lil suprised as to why i even cared to comment on it seeing as u going to college and still being clueless as ever! so why would u choose to write a "whole blog" about atheism if u dont choose to be? of course u have the right to be i never said u couldnt be but its interesting to me how u got offensive when i was confused about u being atheist...and your right i was confused about this whole blog being about u choosing not to be atheist?? "I have a full right to be which is the point of this whole blog which you obviously didn't get either." and as to knowing wat kind of a person i am cuz u dont have a clue..u assuming that i have a religion is wrong! its about religion maybe u were the one who just skimmed wat i wrote and didnt correctly read wat i had said. i have also been in numerous religions my upbringing very different from you catholics who dont even consider opening the bible. and there is only one true god and he wants us to kno his personal name otherwise he would have not given it to us which is in the original untranslated scriptures and no i never said that his name is used and spoken in english id think u would kno that being as u went to college to study all this...there is sumthin called translation of languages and jehovah is his name translated in english its not hard to figure out for instance im sure u kno spanish right? now the name linda is pronounced different in both languages english and spanish right? and in french its belle which is spelled and pronouced differently. i am not insecure about my faith or wat i believe if i was i wouldnt have bothered to comment. how would u kno that there were any religions before mine? how would u or anyone kno anything factual unless u were living in that time which by the way i dont have a one religion wat i have are my beliefs and faith which isnt much but more than i can say for u. satan is not able to create things he is given a choice its called free will u can choose to disobey or u can do wat is right and naturally we all kno the difference from right and wrong. anyone saying that god talks to them through dreams or during prayers yes is probably insane because as it says in the bible it is not him doing that he speaks through the bible and never did i once refer to one certain religion or one certain bible thats where u take this out of proportion. and no science can not completely explain why we grow old wat they have are theory's since our bodies produce 200,000,000,000 red cells per day, 10,000,000,000 white cells per day, and 400,000,000,000 platelets per day...since we produce this many cells per day it concludes that we should live forever and not grow old. also i want to ask u a question since u clearly have many for me. how would u kno that religion hasnt proved god's existance? u havent lived those peoples lives...u havent lived in biblical times or any other times. yes the bible has had sum minor changes to it like u said it can get changed a LITTLE bit but if u actually take the time to research u will find that the king james version has only changed two things in that bible from the original scriptures which were 1. changing jehovah's personal name to god or lord and jehovah only comes up twice in the king james version .2 when they added the part about the trinity. that is not in the original scriptures. so can religion prove the existance of god? the only way u could ever kno that is if u look for him yourself. oh and by the way i do read more than one bible i read the new translation which is translated exactly as the original scriptures which nothing deducted from it or added to it and thats a fact! look it up and i look at the kings james version to confirm wat ive read since it is written in the old english language when people used to used words like thee,thy.wilt and thou. i didnt comment in the first place to push u farther away from religion my point was u looking for further into faith and the bible and not just focusing on religion itself i personally dont go to church because people are too corrupt and we are not perfect. i choose to study wat i learn on my own i dont have any religous leaders that i listen to. why would anyone go to church and jus listen to sumone preach about a certain topic and me jus take their word for it? yes as in baptist churches they refer to the bible once in a while but in order to learn u have to study and listening to sumone yell and scream at u is not wat i consider learning or studying. dont be so quick to try and figure me out or kno wat kind of a person i am only from a simple comment i made. i admit i was a little annoyed at first but i do read your blogs sumtimes its just that this one really got to me. and by the way u responded and i can say that u were offended by the way i used the word "intelligent" and u cant be that secure everybody is insecure about something and u are quick to anger which also tells me u dont have children. and as for the whole science thing i see its not your area of expertise id avoid it if i were u but im not thank god. science only goes so far then comes god

Vivienne said...

Jello!
finally got my laptop back so scanning through all the posts - and the extensive comments you've received...quite interesting! I see you hit some sore spots there ;) - which I will be staying out of as when I read them I felt like replying but it would just turn into a comment war.

Becca said...

Check out the book 101 Salvations available at
http://www.amazon.com/101-Salvations-Janis-Harrison/dp/0981702902/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234123575&sr=8-2

have a great day :)

HektikLyfe said...

>Lindas_1: I don't think anyone is better than anyone. A Blogger account wouldn't make anyone better. How do you come up with these things? Are you on drugs?

You keep calling me clueless but look at the things you are saying. "so why would u choose to write a 'whole blog' about atheism if u dont choose to be?" I can write about anything I wish. That is what blogs are for. And for your information, this blog is NOT about Atheism. Did you see the title? Did you read the banner? The one with the GIANT RED BOLD LETTERS? It says Religion, not Atheism. You say you read through my entire blog, twice, and you still didn't get it. You DO know what "clueless" means right? How about dense?

I didn't get "offensive" or defensive for that matter (whichever you actually meant) regarding your incorrect assumption about my "atheism." I simply pointed out your glaring logical mistakes.

"my upbringing very different from you catholics who dont even consider opening the bible."

I'm not Catholic. You had an upbringing? I guess I was wrong, I would have guessed you to be about 14 or so years old. That must only be your reading/writing level. And speaking of offensive, that open insult to Catholics is offensive. I don't think I insulted any religious group like you have here.

"and there is only one true god and he wants us to kno his personal name otherwise he would have not given it to us which is in the original untranslated scriptures"

Do you know what brainwashing is? You have a copy of these untranslated original scriptures that God himself signed? I'd like to take a look at them.

"there is sumthin called translation of languages and jehovah is his name translated in english its not hard to figure out for instance im sure u kno spanish right? now the name linda is pronounced different in both languages english and spanish right? and in french its belle which is spelled and pronouced differently."

One true name? That sounds like an Oxymoron when you are talking about translation. You showed a great example. Linda=Belle. They sound so different and aren't even remotely spelled the same. The difference is that this "supposed" name of yours has meaning so it CAN be translated. Jehovah, Yaweh, Allah or whichever you choose to use doesn't. Why would the spelling change? Why would the sound change? If it is a name that has NO alternate meaning the the spelling should only change to repeat the exact audible reproduction.

"how would u kno that there were any religions before mine? how would u or anyone kno anything factual unless u were living in that time" (I'm assuming that was the end of the sentence since you apparently haven't deciphered the wonders of the world of punctuation.)

So the only way to know anything for sure is to witness it yourself? Are you sure, as a faithful person, that you want to stand by that statement? That would completely shatter the house of cards of EVERY SINGLE BELIEF of EVERY SINGLE FAITH since humanity itself invented them.

"wat i have are my beliefs and faith which isnt much but more than i can say for u."

This doesn't even make sense. "What you have is your beliefs, which is more than you can say for me?" Yet this entire blog IS ABOUT MY BELIEFS and I how I came to them. Do you see what I'm telling you about not reading my blog? If you read the bible the same way you read my blog, it would be no surprise to me if you get your own faith ALL TWISTED! XD

"satan is not able to create things he is given a choice its called free will u can choose to disobey or u can do wat is right and naturally we all kno the difference from right and wrong."

But I thought you just said "Only a perfect being can create everything in this universe."

"anyone saying that god talks to them through dreams or during prayers yes is probably insane"

Someone quick, tell Mary, Muhammad and Joseph and every disciple and saint and prophet and EVEN JESUS HIMSELF that Linda thinks they are crazy. How do you think your God told us lowly humans his name? You haven't thought things through very well have you?

"because as it says in the bible it is not him doing that he speaks through the bible and never did i once refer to one certain religion or one certain bible thats where u take this out of proportion."

Out of proportion? Or context? I think I have the quantity judged well enough. You aren't referring to the Koran that's for sure. Some followers think THAT is the only religious text you should follow. Everyone thinks their bible is the best. That is why you barbarians never see eye to eye and instead kill each other from your unwillingness to understand each other.

"and no science can not completely explain why we grow old"

EVERYTHING AGES. What is hard to understand about that. Time moves forward near heavy masses like planets. The Sun ages your skin. Usage ages your organs. DNA ages too. Simply because new cells are produced on a daily basis doesn't mean eternal life will spring forth from it.

"since we produce this many cells per day it concludes that we should live forever and not grow old."

WTF???? Where the hell did you make that connection? "It concludes?" Do you know what fallacies are? Your arguments are full of them. Simply because parts of your statement are true, doesn't automatically make the entire sentence true.

Here is an example of something that would make sense to you using the logic you just used.

1. Atoms are not visible to the naked eye
2. Humans are made up of atoms
3. Therefore, humans are not visible to the naked eye

"how would u kno that religion hasnt proved god's existance?"

Because people still doubt, hence the term PROVE. Proving wouldn't allow for doubt. There isn't ONE unifying religion that God himself hasn't identified as THE religion to follow. For that and many other reasons.

"u havent lived those peoples lives..."

What people? The folks in the bibles? Can you even know for sure that those people ever existed? Not according to you who said that you can't even know anything factual unless you were living in that time. Personally, I don't think any of it matters.

MY POINT was that you can learn from what ALL books have to say whether they are based on factual events or not. In fact they work BETTER when you combine all the good things they all have to teach you. (ATTENTION!!!! THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE IN MY BLOG)

"u havent lived in biblical times or any other times."

So now you refuse to believe I exist? You are more far gone than I imagined at first.

"yes the bible has had sum minor changes to it"

The day you tell me you can read Aramaic and show me the original scrolls you wrote yourself in your previous life, I will believe you. Until then, I will lean towards historical records that show more than "minor" changes.

"the only way u could ever kno that is if u look for him yourself."

Now you are talking about a spiritual Holy search within myself? So by definition then, NO, religion HASN'T been able to prove his/her/their existence since you have to look for him to find him. If a God DID exist, by YOUR DEFINITION, then God's presence would be inescapable. He would talk out loud and do the things the Bibles say he did.

"oh and by the way i do read more than one bible "

You only mentioned King James and New Translation and as far as I am concerned, they are one in the same. I speak of OTHER RELIGIONS.

"i read the new translation which is translated exactly as the original scriptures"

"Translated Exactly?" Here is a link to an explanation of what an oxymoron is. Just FYI.

"which nothing deducted from it or added to it and thats a fact!"

Says who? The people who gave you the bible? The hundreds upon thousands and possibly millions of people before you that have passed it on? I have some magic water that cures all ills in a bottle I can sell you. It tastes like Pee but I'll let you have it for a special price.

Even using your own logic "you can't believe anything you haven't seen yourself" it breaks apart every argument you make. Facts? You are talking about facts when referencing your bible? Facts aren't their strength or their purpose.

"i look at the kings james version to confirm wat ive read since it is written in the old english language when people used to used words like thee,thy.wilt and thou"

Well nothing confirms truth like
"thy" right? After all, that same era told of dragons and black magic. Selective much?

"i didnt comment in the first place to push u farther away from religion"

No human should have to power to sway anyone's religious belief's. It's not what I'm trying to do nor is it what you have accomplished.

"my point was u looking for further into faith and the bible and not just focusing on religion itself"

But this BLOG WAS ABOUT RELIGION! THE WHOLE POINT WAS TO FOCUS ON RELIGION ITSELF. I was trying to point out the GOOD things about religions even though they are riddled with factual errors.

"i personally dont go to church because people are too corrupt and we are not perfect."

We are not expected to be and it is this same point I am trying to defend. We are arguing the same point you do realize this right?

"i choose to study wat i learn on my own i dont have any religous leaders that i listen to."

Nor should you, but keep in mind, that at one point, certain religious leaders took liberties on those Holy truths you call your bibles.

"why would anyone go to church and jus listen to sumone preach about a certain topic and me jus take their word for it?"

Why would anyone just read about someone preaching about a certain topic and just take their word for it?

"listening to sumone yell and scream at u is not wat i consider learning or studying."

I can't sit here on my high horse and expect everyone to learn exactly the same way I do. If Baptists feel good about what they do, then I am glad for them.

"i admit i was a little annoyed at first"

Only because you misunderstood it. You felt your beliefs attacked and the rage clouded your vision. Such is the fate of anyone not willingly to accept the differences of others.

"dont be so quick to try and figure me out"

You were the first to accuse me of being "insecure." I was turning the tables on you to show you how ignorant you were being by judging someone and making assumptions about an entire person simply by a few lines of text on a screen.

You follow that with this weird assumption here too.

"u are quick to anger which also tells me u dont have children."

First of all, anyone who knows me knows I LOVE these arguments. I said it in the beginning. Take a look at how much time I have given you. I don't think I've EVER been angry while writing blogs. ...and about children...how the heck did you come up with that conclusion? It doesn't even make sense, not even if it were in the bible.

"u cant be that secure"

I am. In case you forgot, which by your following statement you probably have, we were talking about security in Faith. I am VERY secure.

"...and everybody is insecure about something"

Nobody but you is talking about other insecurities. You brought up religious insecurities then you went off on a different tangent.

"and and as for the whole science thing i see its not your area of expertise id avoid it if i were u but im not thank god."

Really? How old are you? I will actually respond to that. "I'd avoid it if I were you." This is what anyone full of faith would say when they cower in the face of truth. They warn about the "evils" of Science.

"and by the way u responded and i can say that u were offended by the way i used the word 'intelligent'"

By the way I responded? You mean by me telling you that I never claimed to be intelligent? Or when I told you that I didn't even take offense at your obvious use of quotes letting you know that I noticed your flaccid excuse for sarcasm."

"science only goes so far then comes god"

Exact Translation: "Once you run out of truth, then turn to God." I disagree. I think Science and God can go hand in hand and in fact would make a better society.

All religions talk about work and study, none teach you to be stupid, though from your lost battle over the wild English language, I tend to believe otherwise.

Look, I'm not trying to change your mind. It is obvious to me that you are happy (or angry) to be following whatever blind faith you have. Congratulations. If you feel good then great. If it makes you a better person, fantastic. I can disagree with you and whatever flimsy nonsensical reasons that you chose to believe led you to the faith you follow and be happy, as long as your cult doesn't intrude and affect anyone else's well being. The moment you build an alcove in the desert and start impregnating minors, then I will have something more to say about you.

Until then, or if you can't add anything new or meaningful to the conversation feel free to move on.

>Vivienne: Yes. Controversy is great isn't it? Awww, don't ever feel like you have to be censored here. EVERYONE is allowed to speak up...hence the name, PODIUM.

>Becca: I just may do that. You should read "The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality." Or this book. It is a testimonial of a UFO abductee.