Wednesday, September 30, 2009

...and a child led them.

This blog post is purely of a hypothetical nature, on many different levels. So if you decide to read and contemplate what I have to say, keep that in mind.

Yes, I know quoting and misquoting biblical verses is playing a dangerous game. Sometimes I like to contemplate the possibilities, impossibilities and even near probabilities. It makes the time pass on a person's commute. :)

So today I was thinking about that oh so often mistranslated quote from Isaiah 11:6.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

That is the King James version. I know there are MANY different versions all with tiny differences in the choice of words and even order but the general message seems to remain the same. The hidden underlying messages, I can't quite say. ;)

BUT! It IS what I think just MAY be a hidden underlying message that I am going to be covering and uncovering today.

Age is symbolic in the Bible's.

Jesus had an incredibly influential and dramatic life. So much so that anyone with the slightest bit of a mind they can call their own, wonders about what happened to the Messiah between ages 12 and 30. If you are at all familiar with Christian/Catholic versions of the Bible's then you may already have wondered about this yourself. There are MANY theories about what Jesus did during that time but the most interesting have been about WHERE Jesus was. Many different stories ranging from Jesus in England to Jesus in India.

Side-note about the Indian theory, traditionally and historically, the Christian and Catholic faiths have been known to incorporate the beliefs of other religions in order to absorb their membership.

1. Immortality of the soul -Egyptian -Babylonian and Greek philosophies and religions
2. Burning place of torment -ancient Babylonian and Buddhist teachings (7 "hells" cold and hot)
3. Easter -ancient goddess of fertility (Astarte) symbolized by the fertile rabbits and eggs.
4. Christmas December 25th -birthday of the Sun in the sky above, worshiped by the Egyptians, Romans etc.
5. Trinity -one of the oldest and most common beliefs among the pre-Christian religions. There are literally dozens of trinities in pagan religions.

The Roman Catholic Church, and others that followed, began to accept and integrate most teachings that its followers felt were a requirement for their loyalty. (and loyalties ;)

A particular Indian belief of interest is the Avatar. A corporeal representation of God himself. Not the son of God but GOD himself incarnated. To this day some Christian and Catholic groups still argue target this very same topic though from a third person perspective a person could see how similar these two theories are.

This information and corroboration could be found in many different places, including Catholic Encyclopedia's which is where I linked to above.

Now with that said, lets move forward and look at the significance of numbers, specifically age. People recorded as living for hundred's of years. Adam 900 if I'm not mistaken. I've always been told this was mostly symbolic as a sign of respect given to symbols held in high regard. I don't know if this is exactly true or not, any of it for that fact but it does propose an interesting precedent.

What IF the numbers are only significant in their message and not in their historical fact? A theme that seems prevalent in the bible itself. Jewish boys become "men" at 13 during their Barmitsvah but Jesus, born Jewish vanished from 12 until he reached 30 years of age...or did he?

My theory is this: What if Jesus did NOT die at 33? What if 33 was the symbolic number given to him because of its at the time, symbolic and powerful nature?

What if Jesus was put on the cross at a much younger, perhaps at 13 years of age?

What if all the words and miracles that Jesus performed in his older age were instead performed at that earlier stage in his life? Consider that and read the famous passages again. They hold new meaning, it makes many things fit. ...and it sure makes his death and sacrifice a LOT more dramatic not to mention how it shines new light on the willingness and ease of which the masses allowed themselves to follow a child speaking so confidently and eloquently as well as "justifying" the Roman's skepticism.

When crucified, his weight would not be an issue accelerating the death on the cross so a spearing would seem necessary to speed up the process or confirm the death. Brutal, viscous, martyr.

Like with any theory it makes many more things a little difficult to understand but if you are anything like I am, you may find that theory intriguing and oddly unsettling.

A child did lead them.

"And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

It always seemed strange to me that "Jesus Messiah" had to "learn" anything. Yet he knew so much already without learning. Why were there exclusions to his ingrained omniscience? There should never have been any stage of learning since he always was what he was born as. Though if he was only restrained by physical inability, it would make more sense when you read about how the Jews were so amazed with his knowledge as well as ability to read when he went to Jerusalem as a youth.

To be a little more conspiratorial lets try to imagine who or why that other number, 13, would be made into a "bad luck" number. A number to avoid.

Or not. :)

Addtionial Links

Stand to Reason
Catholic Encyclopedia
Indian Avatar


Iris said...

After I read your theory, and then you posted this verse: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." I got chills. This blog is pretty amazing and really got me wanting to look up passages in the bible, related to Jesus, to plug this into. I wonder what a pastor or other church leader would say to your theory. Have you researched to check if you are not the only one with this theory?

Sarah Jane said...

Makes sense to me, your theory. I don't know enough about Jesus to say anything else in favor or dispute.

Douglas said...

Great postulation! the church would have none of it and, in less gentle times, you'd have been branded a heretic and possibly tortured and executed for your blasphemy. Still, I like it. Especially when you consider how difficult it was to get Christianity off to a decent start at the time. And how truly difficult that might be if a youth was the revered teacher.

Marcy said...

It's a good theory. Numbers are very important in the Bible. I'm not a theologian, but my husband is. He'll probably have a better explanation than me.

All I can say is there are those who question the very existence of Jesus. Some just think he was invented or based on a combination of a few people who lived back then.

Another thing to consider is that back in the early church, they only chose 4 gospels to print and the others (the Dead Sea Scrolls) were lost (intentionally?). This was done b/c the 4 gospels had the most coherent message, even if they do have different accounts of the birth story. Some of the other gospels have been found but their stories have not been added to the actual Bible. (Probably too damaged to make sense.) Perhaps there's a Gospel that explains what Jesus was doing from age 12 to 30. Who knows.

HektikLyfe said...

>Iris: I would be a bit hesitant to actually propose the idea. I would essentially be telling them what they believe is wrong and that is something I'm not comfortable doing. If they are happy and they live well, then that is all good. I have a very strong feeling that their solution to my "problem" would be to read and read and read the same bible they live by so that my eyes and soul could be open to accept Jesus and the "truth" of the Word as it was written. In their interpretation. We wouldn't get anywhere.

>Sarah: Awww. Ok. Thanks for reading.

>Douglas: Yeah I imagined as much. :) It would have been so shocking and for that same reason possibly a likely reason they would veil it in allegory.

>Marcy: Yes I too have read and was extremely curious about the origins of the "Jesus" inspirations. It really opens your eyes to possibilities. Even though I've never been the most religious person in the world, the whole idea behind Jesus has always spurred my interest. When that age-old question, "If you had a time machine..." is asked of me, more often then not I answer something like this.

"I would travel back to the times of Jesus to settle it once and for all." Either way. It would be amazing and life changing if it is all true or false.

It is the kind of "proof" many people seek and it would allow us as a people to move on after just about 2 millennia of spiritual stagnation.

jewlover2 said...

I find this blog post extremely intriguing for a variety of reason. First of all, I am a student of the bible and have been my entire of life. Secondly, based on my knowledge of the scriptures, I chose to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses than to side myself with Fundamental Christianity, since the incorporation of pagan practices into their theology, as you mentioned, is vastly unsettling to me.
While I do believe that Jesus died at 33 literal years of age, I also understand the motivation behind such reasoning and find it very profound. That said, I don't believe Jesus and God are the same person, and therefore do believe there are exclusions to Jesus' knowledge in general (for instance, he does not know the 'day or the hour' of God's vengeance) and neither do the angels, yet God does) ....he was a perfect spirit creature before he was on earth, but this didnt necessarily give him omniscience, any more than it gave Adam that quality. His knowledge of men grew during his time with them and his life as one of them. That is what I've always determined that 'growth in wisdom' to entail.

Food for thought, indeed! :)

jewlover2 said...

Belated disclaimer: Evidently I failed to proofread the above post...full of grammatical and spelling errors, it is. :) heh heh

HektikLyfe said...

>Jewlover2: "...he does not know the 'day or the hour' of God's vengeance"

OK. I don't believe he was God incarnate either (if he existed at all) but playing Devil's Advocate here, (so to speak ;), couldn't a person argue that God himself didn't know the day or hour of his vengeance either.

As it is written in the bible's, God has known to change his mind and perhaps the lack of a definite date was a message in and of itself. Like a warning father letting you know that he is watching you.

So according to Jehovah's witnesses Adam is equally significant to Jesus?

Jesus not being omniscient, he was aware of the "plan" and even knew of the details of his betrayal. Did this knowledge of men somehow teach him how to perform miracles as a human? Does this mean that if we live the life like he led it we to can do the things he did?

Making Jesus a regular human proposes a lot of new questions.

jewlover2 said...

I love that you think about this...I really do. As you know, Jehovah's Witnesses participate in a worldwide preaching work (for which we are alternately loved and hated) and you'd be surprised how many people practice their religion on a traditional basis, knowing very little about their 'own belief's. Kinda strange, actually.

But I digress. I never really thought of God as 'changeable', in the sense that you mention. There have certainly been occasions where he has reacted with love and patience by altering a timeline or two. The scripture I mentioned was concerning the conclusion of this 'system of things', which will result in Armageddon and the point of which is that he knows the scheduled time for its occurrance and Jesus himself does not. If man did know the date, they would hardly be inclined to worship God out of love, but out of dread...the unhealthy kind. And yes, I do believe Jehovah is the only one who knows all things, or has the ability to.

Adam and Jesus are not equal in the absolute sense, since Adam was a man and never had the opportunity to live in heaven with God. Therefore, he was not a supreme being, as Jesus and the angels are. However, they are equal to a lesser degree, that of being perfect created individuals. Which is why Jesus was the only logical sacrifice that could buy back what perfect Adam lost- the prospect of everlasting life for mankind.

As for Jesus' ability to perform miracles, this power was given to him by his Father. Angels also performed miracles, with God's backing, as did imperfect humans. So really, no man or spirit creature could perform miracles without God's giving him the ability.

Papi's Girl said...

I enjoyed reading your post. Keep asking the questions and you will recieve the answers. I appreciate your open mindedness.

My interpretation is of that scripture is that it is painting a picture of our human and spiritual natures. I believe we are all spiritual beings living in a fleshly body...just as Jesus was. So this scripture captures those two natures that we all have and how the spirit of God shall led us.

I also believe that the scriptures were written to be interpreted by the spirit not by our carnal minds. We can never understand the deep revelation that is contained within them if we analyze them with our tiny human minds. They can only be understood by the spirit which dwells within each of us but remains asleep until we seek to be awaken. Asking questions and seeking answers is the beginning to that awakening.

I looked up the meaning of the numbers 12, 13 and 30 so maybe you can dig a little deeper into your discussion. 12 represents Govermental Perfection. It symbolizes God's perfect, divine accomplishment actively manifested. The number 30 represents the Blood Of Christ...Dedication. 13 is associated with Depravity and Rebellion. Let me know what you get out of that. I would love to see where it takes you.

Once again thanks for sharing your thoughts. The bible says deep calls unto deep. Your deep discussion opened up my deep so thanks. :)

Papi's Girl said...

Oh and as far as what Iris commented about what other pastors or church leaders may say or think of your theory. I believe many would be threatened because they have defined themselves by what they know. They have created an identity based upon religion and not the unlimited realm of the spirit. Not all are called to be as deep as you may be. Some are to remain entry level teachers but we should all recieve one another in love without judgement. We can all learn from one another and in turn help to awaken nations and transform the world. I say keep thinking outside of the box because there is definitely purpose in it. I enjoy reading your theories. I don't have to agree with them in order to respect them. They do spark a fire inside of me and help sharpen my iron.

What I believe the scripture meant when it talked about Jesus increasing in wisdom and stature with God is He too had to deal with the carnal mind as we do. He had to learn to depend on God's wisdom...the spirit and not his own carnal understanding. Favor is the devine influence upon the heart and it's reflection in the life. So as Jesus leaned on God's wisdom it began to reflect in his life. We too have God's favor if we lean on His wisdom and let Him guide us. His blessings will be visible in our lives. What seems impossible to man is possible with God.

Those are my thoughts thank you for letting me share.